444/ vs 45 70 govt

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444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by Tub Horn on Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:23 am

How much more preformance does the 444 have over the 45 70 govt? Also what are the different bullet combinations are availiable?

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by Brutus on Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:43 pm

Tub Horn wrote:How much more preformance does the 444 have over the 45 70 govt? Also what are the different bullet combinations are availiable?
I think as a practical matter it's pretty much a draw.

I bought a .444 instead of a .45-70 primarily because .44 cal. rifle and pistol bullets are the same diameter (both .429) whereas .45 cal. rifle and pistol bullets are not (rifle .458, pistol .451). I already owned a .44 mag. rifle and pistol so that was a worthwhile consideration for me when considering reloading. I already had several hundred .44 bullets stocked up, so I can load them in either .44 mag. or the .444.

The problem with both in factory ammo is that it seems no one is stocking much anymore other than the Hornady LeverEvolution. From friends' and family experience with the HLE's, they seem not to do very well at close range. They tend to be much hotter than typical .444 and .45-70 and when they hit a small-bodied deer they tend not to expand unless they hit bone. A cousin of mine had the same trouble with HLE in .35 Remington. All the shots involved where the HLE bullets didn't perform well were at relatively close range - 50 yds. and less. I do use the HLE's in my .444 because off of the primary stand where I hunt the shortest possible shot I'd probably have is 125 yards, unless one just happened to walk right up under the window of my shooting house. The near end of my closest food plot is 125. I'm sighted in at 200.

I'd have to give the nod to .444 as far as the variety of different bullets available and the price. Most .44 bullets are cheaper than .45 cal. rifle bullets and there's no end of different bullet weights and types available due to the popularity of .44 mag. handguns and rifles.

Very Happy

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by Xd357 on Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:31 am

With the .444 you get more for less.
better ballistics and less recoil.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by quigleysharps4570 on Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:55 pm

Bullet selection for the .444 is no where near the selection you can get for the 45-70.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by surehuntsalot on Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:36 pm

quigleysharps4570 wrote:Bullet selection for the .444 is no where near the selection you can get for the 45-70.



+ 100

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by Brutus on Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:44 pm

quigleysharps4570 wrote:Bullet selection for the .444 is no where near the selection you can get for the 45-70.
If you'll take a gander over at MidwayUSA or similar places you'll see that bullet selection for the two is pretty much a wash. Midway lists about 100 listings for .429 bullets, all of which are suitable for the .444 cartridge. They list about 130 for .458 bullets, quite a few of which are pretty much UNsuitable for .45-70 due to their extreme weight. Yeah, you can shoot 500 grainers in the .45-70, but who wants to?

IDK

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by quigleysharps4570 on Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:30 pm

Brutus wrote:They list about 130 for .458 bullets, quite a few of which are pretty much UNsuitable for .45-70 due to their extreme weight. Yeah, you can shoot 500 grainers in the .45-70, but who wants to?

Load up some of those little light weight pistol bullets and then some with a 535 gr. or bigger...then go shoot them at 700 or 800 yards with a little wind. When you come back you can tell me which ones are unsuitable. Wink

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by Brutus on Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:13 pm

quigleysharps4570 wrote:
Brutus wrote:They list about 130 for .458 bullets, quite a few of which are pretty much UNsuitable for .45-70 due to their extreme weight. Yeah, you can shoot 500 grainers in the .45-70, but who wants to?

Load up some of those little light weight pistol bullets and then some with a 535 gr. or bigger...then go shoot them at 700 or 800 yards with a little wind. When you come back you can tell me which ones are unsuitable. Wink

Oh......

'scuse me.

I figured we were talking about .444 vs. .45-70 for deer hunting and such.

I didn't know we were talking about friggin' mortar fire.

Please continue.

roll eyes

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by RMulhern on Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:32 pm

Brutus

At 43 I doubt very seriously that you've ever messed around at all with paper patch bullets in a black powder cartridge rifle shooting blackpowder so we that do know what they'll do at the extended ranges....especially against a 'pipsqueak' pistol bullet that starts out like a house on fire but out farther holds up akin to a manhole cover. At your closer ranges....your deer hunting distances your .444 will suffice however don't ever go up against someone with your deer loads shooting a good BPCR with blackpowder at LR because your pistol bullets will SUCK BIGTIME!!

Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by drew14357 on Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:29 pm

Really an truly it is all gonna end up to what the shooter wants.
This bullet does that an that bullet does this!
The .444 may have a flatter trajectory with a .429 bullet of course its
lighter an smaller.
the 45/70 may have a longer trajectory with a heavier an slower bullet (stock bullet) but hits harder.

OK this is my (HO) In 1874 they produced the 45-70 to kill a Generals horse - Indian horse at 2000 yds

The 1879 Sandy hook projects show a 45-70 with a 500.gr Rn
bullet is capable of shooting 3500 yds

the bullets i hand load my self are as following
300 gr Barnes tsx shooting 2679fps
325 gr ftx hornady shooting 2450 fps
I myself have 2) 45-70's
45-70 sharps falling block
45-70 handy rifle

The shorter barrel on the handy doesn't effect powder burn due to length of barrel. i can see a burn ring inside the barrel 14''to 16''


all in all its gonna come down to what the user prefers!

An that's all i have to say bout that!!!

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by Brutus on Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:18 pm

RMulhern wrote:Brutus

At 43 I doubt very seriously that you've ever messed around at all with paper patch bullets in a black powder cartridge rifle shooting blackpowder so we that do know what they'll do at the extended ranges....especially against a 'pipsqueak' pistol bullet that starts out like a house on fire but out farther holds up akin to a manhole cover. At your closer ranges....your deer hunting distances your .444 will suffice however don't ever go up against someone with your deer loads shooting a good BPCR with blackpowder at LR because your pistol bullets will SUCK BIGTIME!!

Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!

We all bow to your wisdom, oh mighty buffalo hunter!

roll eyes

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by RMulhern on Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:46 pm

Brutus
Your reply is noted!

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by quigleysharps4570 on Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:20 pm

Brutus wrote:We all bow to your wisdom, oh mighty buffalo hunter!

If you could lay off being a smartass, you might learn a thing or two from him Brutus.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by dhollis51 on Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:25 pm

For deer hunting(figure that is why you are comparing the two) I have shot both and went with the 444 just liked it better, considerable less recoil and I am planning on reloading for my 44 mag so I figured I would stick with that. Also compared the ballistics on both and the 444 was looking better in my book for deer hunting which for me is 250-300 yards in a few of my spots and the other spots ill take my 308 and reach out and touch them. So my vote is for the 444

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by walkiahgunman on Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:08 pm

Really guys? Come on, we are adults here ain't we? Personal preference is the key here. Both are great cartridges when used here in Mississippi as deer hunting loads. I shoot a 45-70 and can confidently make kills out to 200yds, 444 may do better but my shots hunting in the Pearl River swamp are rarely over 60yds. Recoil is not to much of a big deal cause your not gonna shoot a dedicated deer rifle(especially primitive weapon) more than an average of 6 times a year, right? To me 45-70 ammo has been easier to find, but I roll my own so no issue there. Don't need much bullet choice, we are shooting whitetails right? Pretty much any bullet out of either one will kill many times over. To me just get whatever you can get the best price on and whichever one you want to get. It's damn near 6 in one hand, half a dozen the other. JMHO, no since getting in a pissing contest.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by RMulhern on Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:55 pm

No pissing contest! Just stating my opinion regarding the usage thereof relative to both cartridges.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by hawghound on Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:11 pm

which one can you buy at Walmart? 45-70

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by RMulhern on Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:23 pm

hawghound wrote:which one can you buy at Walmart? 45-70

And don't go back to the guy you possibly bought it from if you're having problems with it because he's probably over in clothing selling women's panties!! thumbs up greeting lol

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by hawghound on Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:29 pm

True .. It also depends on reloading. Do you shoot 44 mag or 45 acp / 45 colt / 454 Casull / 450 Bushmaster / 460 S&W / 20 gauge sabot slugs.

Then, when you look at Midway there is one page of 444 ammo compared to 3 pages of 45-70.

At 43?... Age doesn't matter when it comes to experience and knowledge of a field.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by hawghound on Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:57 am

RMulhern wrote:Yes....age DOES MATTER! And when I made that comment it was strictly pertaining to a prior comment I think by Brutus to the effect of the .444 being a superior round to the 45/70. The fact of the matter is that the majority of us who delve into the world of BPCR are the older guys who both have the time/money to invest in the rifles and equipment required because most of us are retired! This isn't a bragging statement; rather just plain fact and there are literally millions of rounds that go down range each year by the BPCR group that know what their rifles will do out at the extended ranges to 1200 yds. I might add....at ranges the .444 with lightweight pistol bullets would be absolutely useless! Most guys in their 30s and 40s are still pounding away with cartridges in the smokeless powder class and very few of which know beans about the usage of tang mounted sights. In the final analysis, as I stated in the original forum...the .444 is a good round for which it was intended...a woods rifle basically for hunting and it will do an adequate job. It is a much better performer however shooting heavier all-lead cast bullets rather than the lighter weight pistol bullets. But the majority of folks shooting the .444 won't ever discover this because Wally World doesn't sell them.

First, I believe that if you can't post it on public forum then it shouldn't be posted.

Second, I just made a observation and gave a opinion. LIke walkiahgunman stated "Personal preference is the key here." I agree with his statement.

Third, true ... when we are discussing 'patch and ball' ... majority of hunters would not have the experience as the ole timers [I personally never shot one more than half a dozen times]; BUT, again, it is my opinion that age doesn't matter when it comes to the ability to hunt and shoot. How old was the young man that won the State FTR class this year? 19 maybe 20.


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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by bubbat on Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:15 am

Alright boys, play nice. no

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by hawghound on Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:29 am

I like your quote "Guns Don't Kill People, Daddys With Pretty Daughters Do." How do you put a quote like that on your posts?

True, we should play nice ... flag/eagle


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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by bubbat on Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:41 am

hawghound wrote:I like your quote "Guns Don't Kill People, Daddys With Pretty Daughters Do." How do you put a quote like that on your posts?

True, we should play nice ... flag/eagle


It's in the signature section just like yours.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by RMulhern on Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:45 am

Discussion over!!

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by hawghound on Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:35 am

Hey bubbat

Thanks, I found it after I asked you.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by btr568 on Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:43 pm

Well it's purdy much a personal thing on which one is best.444 lead can be used with a 44 Speacial,44 Mag if you load your own(I considered that when I was shopping)
I personally don't/didn't care for a 45/70 but then I don't own anything in 45 cal.either.
So since the great state of Mississippi said I can use smokeless cartideages in 35 caliber or better I bought a 35 Whelan and can now out shoot both of the afore mentioned calibers.......

(ya'll can now,cloud up and rain on me,lol) thumbs up

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by Brutus on Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:03 pm

RMulhern wrote:Discussion over!!

.45-70 is a complete P.O.S.

.444 Marlin is the greatest caliber ever invented.























JK


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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by surehuntsalot on Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:23 am

Brutus wrote:
RMulhern wrote:Discussion over!!

.45-70 is a complete P.O.S.

.444 Marlin is the greatest caliber ever invented.



just the opposite






















JK


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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by tek4260 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:55 am

Hard to convince anyone that you know which is better if you are toting a Handi Rifle....................... Just saying....

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by cottonmouth on Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:53 am

tek4260 wrote:Hard to convince anyone that you know which is better if you are toting a Handi Rifle....................... Just saying....

lol lol

J.B.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by arkansasguy on Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:04 pm

I created an account just so I could say this to all you .44 lovers..

Do you know why I don't shoot a .44?

Because John M. Browning made a .45

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by mascott on Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:35 pm

When I first heard that I was so young, all I could do was roll over and tee tee.
scott

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by arkansasguy on Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:17 pm

If than saying was around THAT long ago...it must be true, Scott.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by patchz on Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:40 pm

Brutus wrote:The problem with both in factory ammo is that it seems no one is stocking much anymore other than the Hornady LeverEvolution.  
Online for .45-70 has improved recently, at least for 405 gr.

http://ammoseek.com/?from=resultspage&gun=rifle&cal=228&grains=405&mfg=&ikw=&ekw=&noblanks=noblanks&sortby=cpr

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by msubullyfan on Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:50 pm

This thread was old when dirt was new. Don't feed the trolls.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by arkansasguy on Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:06 pm

Thanks for that link patchz. Useful website there.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by patchz on Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:37 pm

arkansasguy wrote:Thanks for that link patchz. Useful website there.
You're welcome. But I can't take credit, I got it from someone on MSGO about a year ago. If you're looking for a particular load/round, check back often as it updates frequently, and sometimes the price has come down. It is very useful if you order ammo online.

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Re: 444/ vs 45 70 govt

Post by tek500 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:58 am

Well I own and shoot both in marlin lever guns. I reload for both calibers and cast bullets for both. In my opinion of them both are basically the same as far as range for hunting use. For some strange unknown reason I am drawn to the 444 it shoot's great and I just prefer using it over the 45-70. I can't really explain it or reason it out. It's just my opinion.

I actually own 3 45-70's 2 marlin lever guns and also a 45-70 BFR revolver. One of my marlin 45-70's is the guide gun and the other is a 24" 1895. If I shoot 45-70 in a rifle I prefer the guide gun for it's shorter barrel and better handling.

I own quite a few marlin lever guns in several different calibers and for some reason the 444 is a favorite over all the rest.

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