Concealed Carry concern: friendly fire

The article makes it sound like they shot two guys wrestling. No mention of either (agent or robber) having a gun. Prayers go out the the agent and his family.

They didn't come right out and say it but:

McGoey went into Charlie's Family Pharmacy in Seaford, a small shorefront Long Island town, at about 2 p.m. on New Year's Eve, police said. He announced a holdup and was given what he came for: painkillers and money.

And the victim was an off-duty federal agent.....since most police depts require officers to carry off duty as well, then I would expect the Feds do the same?

So it's safe to assume that they were both armed.

That article was extremely vague though. What made the officer decide to fire? Did he see one of thems gun? Did he think the off-duty fed was trying to beat the robber to death? Were they fighting over a gun? Was the off duty cop just having a bad day and felt like shooting someone???(obviously not a real suggestion, but you never know)

That article didn't even give a full side to the story......it's Swiss cheese it's so full of holes.

CinBrandon, don't let this detail lacking article deter you. The benefits far outweigh the risks.

Friendly fire is always a concern when you are a plain-clothes or off-duty LEO. It is something I always teach my trainees to consider when taking any law enforcement action. To a certain extent, there is not a whole lot you can do. You want to listen for any incoming commands from uniformed LEOs who might arrive on the scene, but we know that persons are involved in a shooting often suffer from auditory exclusion, and there is no way to prevent that. You want to watch for uniformed LEOs who might arrive on the scene, but if you get tunnel vision, which we know often happens, that might not work either. In the past, when I have intervened in a situation while off-duty and had a couple of moments to make that decision, I tried to put my badge somewhere that it was most likely to be seen. But when things are in action and you don't have time to prepare, you just have to make a decision to act or not to act. Once uniformed LEOs are on scene, it is imperative to follow their verbal commands (assuming you here them) instantly and without hesitation. But the possibility for tragedy is still high.

Doug Bowser wrote:And they say the cops are trained to a better degree that citizens. They screwed up this time. If neither of the wrestling men were armed and threatening, they should not have fired their weapons.

Wow, how easy to pass judgement from the warm safe glow of a computer monitor. According to witness statements from the scene, the robber was reaching for a pistol in his waistband (turned out to be a realistic looking pellet gun, which the Agent had no way to know) when the ATF Agent shot him. According to those same witness statements, the ATF Agent had his pistol in his hand when he was shot by the retired Nassau County cop. Is that exactly what happened? I have no way of knowing, I was not there. And it is far too early in the investigation to decide based on reporting in the the media. But why bother waiting for the facts to come out when you can go ahead and jump to a self-satisfying conclusion now?

Gonzo

Doug Bowser wrote:In 1963, I had a home invasion in NY. I got the perp to lay down and spread em We don't need any accidents.

Doug 'em. I had a .270 WCF rifle on him. I told my ex-wife to call the police and be sure they knew, the guy in the undershorts with the rifle was the good guy. It concerns me that an officer might not judge the situation properly.

While that is a great story and I'm happy it ended as well as it did, it has absolutely no comparison to the incident in Long Island. In your case, your wife as able to call for assistance, explain the situation the phone, tell the Police you had the individual prone at gunpoint, and describe exactly where you, the good guy, were standing and exactly what you, the good guy, were wearing. You, in turn, knew the Police were coming. You knew when they got there and you knew exactly how they would be coming in.

Based on local New York reporting (and what has been passed along to me by an NYPD buddy),in this situation, it certainly appears that none of that beneficial knowledge existed. The off-duty ATF Agent had no way of knowing that a retired Police Officer and an off-duty NYPD Officer were going to burst into the scene in the midst of the ongoing situation. If he had tunnel vision and auditory exclusion, he very likely neither heard their commands or even saw them arrive on scene. He was currently engaged in the fight and had already fired at least one round. On the other side of the line, the responding retired and off-duty officers had no way of knowing that there was a "good guy" already engaged in the fight. All they knew was that an an employee from the pharmacy next door came in screaming that there was a man with a gun robbing them. To their knowledge, there was no "good guy" present.

There was no "getting ready". There was no "forehand knowledge". There was no "Don't shoot the Agent, he is wearing a red shirt and khaki pants!". There was only the situation, as it existed, in real time. Condition red.

Hopefully all the facts will come out with the investigation. But I'm not about to brand anybody in the wrong (except for the robber) or as having "screwed up" until there are more facts to consider. Sometimes, in a gunfight, even when you do everything according to the "rules", things still go wrong and innocent people get shot.
Gonzo

NO COP BASHING

CinBrandon wrote:
I have no hand-to-hand combat training, and am on smaller size, so I have no desire to confront someone like that. But this is still something to be keenly aware of if you ever decide to draw your weapon.

trying to get back to concerns and questions of the OP..
just because i have hand to hand training doesnt mean that i should try to do a disarm.. Most martial arts intructors will simply tell you to give them what they want. I would guess 8 out of 10 times they leave as soon as they get what they come for. If you are out in the streets at night and you are held up and you give him what he ask for and doesnt run off but starts looking around.. your about to get shot so time to act.

in the mass shooting scenario, it sounds cold, but the best decision is to do your best to get the heck out of dodge!

unless you clearly see the guy shooting anyone who pops their head out of hiding then that is about the only way you can know EXACTLY who the shooter is.

in that scenario its head down, and hide. PERIOD.

a Firearms permit in MS is not a badge, just because we have the right to protect ourselves and others from bodily harm, doesn't always mean that it is wise. Protect yourself, and your family, thats your only responsibility. And unless you are left with no choice but to engage, then your only responsibility is to get out of that situation and let the police handle it.

time and place for everything though. its up to the individual to determine what the circumstances call for.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Beladran wrote:"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

too true, but there's a time to fight and a time to hide. how can you or I be sure who the shooter is without going to look for them?

like I said, if you see him obviously shooting then you can successfully ID him, but if you just see a guy with what appears to be a personal weapon out, or a duty weapon if he's a plain clothes or off duty officer, running(lets just say across campus), are you going to shoot? are you going to ruin the element of surprise to yell for him to stop and ID himself? possibly even risk him(whether BG or potential GG) being startled and opening fire on you because he mistook you for the BG(if its a cop or other permit holder), or if its the BG you just told him where you are and now he knows that you have a gun, so guess what, he can either open fire on you, or he could always run, stash his gun and tell the cops that the shooter is over there and he's wearing X color shirt and pants.

not a risk I'm willing to take for someone else.....I'm sorry. now if there is some way to make a positive ID then the situation changes slightly.





I see only one solution to avoid any possible confusion that may cause friendly fire!

Doug Bowser wrote:In 1963, I had a home invasion in NY. I got the perp to lay down and spread em We don't need any accidents.

I had a .270 WCF rifle on him. I told my ex-wife to call the police and be sure they knew, the guy in the undershorts with the rifle was the good guy. It concerns me that an officer might not judge the situation properly.

Doug

Several years ago, I was an eyewitness to an armed robbery that occurred across the street from my home. The bad guy ran away when my father yelled at him. I went to check on the victim and called 911. I was concerned that the bad guy might come back to try and cause harm to me or the vic. I kept my pistol in my hand the entire time and told the dispatcher “please inform the responding officers that I do have a firearm. I am wearing blah blah blah and will put my pistol away when they arrive.” Thank goodness though that the first officer on scene was a good friend of mine who knew that I carried.