13-yr old w/pellet pistol killed by police in Brownsville TX

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/04/police-shoot-kill-armed-teenager-in-texas-school/?test=latestnews

13 yr.-old shot after refusing multiple orders to drop weapon. The police did their job, they cannot second-guess when a suspect brandishes a weapon. They cannot take their time and say "oh it's a kid, maybe that is a bb/pellet pistol". I AM NOT SECOND GUESSING LAW ENFORCEMENT.

However I wonder if more of the faculty/staff, in particular any who had any contact with the (now) dead student, were more experienced in firearms, perhaps they could have identified the pistol as a pellet gun and disarmed the student? I work in a school district, and in an ironic coincidence, today we held an assembly to warn students against bringing ANYTHING that would be classified as a weapon under state law.
Based on experience, I would tend to believe that the general warning was (1) sounded by a faculty or staff member who had actually sighted the "weapon" (although a student probably notified a faculty or staff member, by procedure it would be quickly investigated by an adult, most likely an administrator, BEFORE the news was spread to the entire school to go into lockdown); (2) until LE arrived, an administrator would probably have kept track / sight of the armed student. Unless it was extremely realistic, if the adult was able to discern that it was indeed not a real handgun, the adult could have disarmed the student in question. I certainly would have done so. In the years I've been in education all of the BB pistols I've encountered at schools were very obviously BB pistols. I'd risk tackling the kid to keep him/her from being shot by LE.
Sad all around. Parents have lost a child, LE officers must live with the knowledge that although they did the right and only prudent thing that they could be expected to do, the end result was that they shot and killed a 13-year old with an air pistol. I wonder if more in the field of education were "gun savvy", could that child have been safely disarmed? My
My prayers for the family of the child and for the LE personnel involved.

well i tell you there are some pellet pistols out there that from a few feet away you cant tell if its real or not.. specially some of those airsoft weapons..

poor cop is probably devistated = (

Beladran wrote:well i tell you there are some pellet pistols out there that from a few feet away you cant tell if its real or not.. specially some of those airsoft weapons..

poor cop is probably devistated = (

You are indeed correct. I have seen those too - but many have colored parts, or can be recognized by the barrel diameter, obvious plastic seams, etc. I have no idea what the student had - Maybe it could not be distinguished from a real firearm. However in my experience I haven't seen any "realistic" air / airsoft weapons at school - at least not yet.
Anyway my original post is what came to mind when I heard the story, as I have had personal experience with BB pistols and knew immediately (this was not in a threatening situation, but in all cases where a search disclosed the "weapon") what my reaction would be - "is it REAL?" - before letting the child run amok to (1) kill if it was indeed "Real" or (2) be killed when LE arrived to do their duty. I write 'letting the child run amok' because at some point the school admin tends to withdraw and lock down and leave the suspect alone to do whatever he / she intends to do and wait for LE.
This story just hit me strongly, since I may one day God forbid find myself in that situation.

Sad story. Heard the other day all bb guns, air softs and toy guns made after Jan 1 are going to have to be all white or orange or a combo of both now by law to help prevent something like this from happening.

yea heard that to.. they used to have little orange covers on the muzzle but half the time you can remove them. heck i was in walmart several years ago and i saw this teenager whoop out a berreta 92 at the end of one of the isles.. I stopped me and the wife dead in our tracks and un snapped my pistol(1911 in shoulder rig) then the kid took the grip off and was trying to find find a CO2 cartridge for it... had me scared for several days after that = (

bubbat wrote:Sad story. Heard the other day all bb guns, air softs and toy guns made after Jan 1 are going to have to be all white or orange or a combo of both now by law to help prevent something like this from happening.

Now the bad guys will be painting the end of the barrel orange, giving them that one second or more advantage when the cops think it's just a toy gun.

I was in the BPS yesterday getting a Red Ryder BB gun with my fiance's BIL for his son, and we looked at the airsoft pistols just for the heck of it.........I remember thinking that most of those could easily pass for the real deal! Most are marked as Walthers, HKs and look exactly like their counterparts!

The scariest to me was a s&w m&p with the tan frame....looking at it I couldn't tell a difference until I looked at the muzzle end, and even it appeared to have a large opening around the small opening for the BBs......

Your average person not familiar with guns at all, or even a wide variety of guns is not going to be able to tell the difference without seeing the muzzle end, and by then it's too late!

I hate for them to ruin the realism of it because I understand a lot of folks are heavily into it because of that, and even the little red Ryder bb guns, if the earlier post about being brightly colored is correct, it'll just be a shame to mess with it. But the technology has gotten ahead of itself at this point.

Either way it won't be much longer and all toy guns will be illegal anyway.....they'll be considered training tools or some like that

Beladran wrote:poor cop is probably devistated = (

I agree James. He will be second guessing himself and re-living that the rest of his life. I agree, these airsoft guns look real even up close. Kid points a weapon at you or a bystander, you have to shoot. I can't imagine the grief the officer was overcome by when he got over the kid and kicked the "gun" awas just a toy.
Prayers to the parents and to the LEO officers involved.

jakeg823 wrote:The scariest to me was a s&w m&p with the tan frame....looking at it I couldn't tell a difference until I looked at the muzzle end, and even it appeared to have a large opening around the small opening for the BBs......

Your average person not familiar with guns at all, or even a wide variety of guns is not going to be able to tell the difference without seeing the muzzle end, and by then it's too late!

Either way it won't be much longer and all toy guns will be illegal anyway.....they'll be considered training tools or some like that

It is already illegal in many "civilized" nations in Europe, for example. But you confirm my point: (aside from using the word 'scariest') that a Reasonably Knowledged Individual (RKI) can indeed distinguish between an air gun, toy gun etc. and a REAL firearm. If someone on that staff had been able to say "hey it's an air pistol" and if (VERY BIG "IF") they had the intestinal fortitude to act, they would have tackled that kid and held him down instead of letting him run around with no other possible outcome but for the LE personnel to perform their due diligence and shoot first, ask questions later.

There are a lot of holster makers that use them for molds (not myself). That's how dead on they are.

Real said story for all involved.

I had a good friend in NY who killed a 14 year old on his beat one night. The kid shot at him with a blank pistol. He was a Syracuse, nY policeman answering a silent alarm at a Sears store. He was badly effected by this incident. He had no choice in the shooting and it was past midnight, so he could not see very well.

May the Lord bless the policeman that made the shot on the boy with the air pistol

Doug.

Scharfschütze wrote:

jakeg823 wrote:The scariest to me was a s&w m&p with the tan frame....looking at it I couldn't tell a difference until I looked at the muzzle end, and even it appeared to have a large opening around the small opening for the BBs......

Your average person not familiar with guns at all, or even a wide variety of guns is not going to be able to tell the difference without seeing the muzzle end, and by then it's too late!

Either way it won't be much longer and all toy guns will be illegal anyway.....they'll be considered training tools or some like that

It is already illegal in many "civilized" nations in Europe, for example. But you confirm my point: (aside from using the word 'scariest') that a Reasonably Knowledged Individual (RKI) can indeed distinguish between an air gun, toy gun etc. and a REAL firearm. If someone on that staff had been able to say "hey it's an air pistol" and if (VERY BIG "IF") they had the intestinal fortitude to act, they would have tackled that kid and held him down instead of letting him run around with no other possible outcome but for the LE personnel to perform their due diligence and shoot first, ask questions later.

I agree. I had an instructor at Holmes CC in Ridgeland who made the comment a couple times about how he hoped someone in our class was carrying a gun, because if someone came in on a rampage he'd do his best to get in front of us and save us, because as a teacher he felt that it was his duty to protect us(even though 99.99999% of us were "adults"), but he hoped to God one of us had a gun on us so he didn't have to. Comes down to that intestinal fortitude thing....some teachers are going to hide, others would try to make the informed decision(if possible) to jump the kid in order to save him(the kid) and the officers.

From what the article leads us to believe, I'd say the officers sound justified in doing what they had to do, but the dept and/or school district will probably still be sued, and they'll probably lose, because thats the world we live in.

I agree that they're easy enough to spot if you're pretty familiar with a wide variety of firearms, but I know with some, like that m&p I mentioned earlier, it would be difficult to tell unless you're staring down the business end or up extremely close.

and by the way, I meant the term "scariest" in a loose fashion......I guess shocking would have been more appropriate. Of course, let a couple Brady campaigners get wind of this, and see how realistic some of these air guns are and their nipples will get hard

What happened to that non-lethal ammo. ?

Richard wrote:What happened to that non-lethal ammo. ?

Why would you address what you believe to be a lethal threat with less-than-lethal force? If you believed somebody was about to fire a gun at you, would you try to pepperspray them?

IMO... If a person still decides to hold a weapon (object) after a LEO tells you to drop it (repeatly), then you deserve what you get from the LEO. If you want to be Billy Bada$$, then take your chances................

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I believe there are times when non-lethal force is justified. When someone is pointing a gun at you is definitely not one of those times. IMHO

22lrfan wrote:I believe there are times when non-lethal force is justified. When someone is pointing a gun at you is definitely not one of those times. IMHO

+1.

they're airing the dispatch recordings from this incident on Fox News. it sounded like multiple shooters to me.

SubGunFan wrote:IMO... If a person still decides to hold a weapon (object) after a LEO tells you to drop it (repeatly), then you deserve what you get from the LEO. If you want to be Billy Bada$$, then take your chances................

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Yep. I hate it for the officer and the boy’s family but if the cops tell you to “drop it” you damn well better do it. I’m assuming that this kid spoke English and wasn’t deaf. May be his parents should have spent a little more time teaching him to respect authority. That’s just my opinion.

It’s not an officer’s job to thoroughly inspect the weapon and give the guy an in depth psychiatric evaluation before making the decision to defend himself.

very poorly trained kid. proper training and parental involvement would have stopped this. everyday our leos put on a uniform, they are targets for all sorts of potential crap. If im told to put the gun down, it will be put down..... the first time very tragic for the families involved.