Forgive my ignorance... (bill of sale)

by Subsonix on Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:34 am

Hi all,

I see a lot of (individual, not FFL) firearm ads these days that say "must sign a bill of sale". I assume this is to help protect the seller in case the firearm is used in a crime and is recovered by the police. I have traded lots of guns over the years with individuals without a bill of sale. I have a few questions...

1. Is there a specific law that says there must be a bill of sale? (surely not)

2. Shouldn't the bill of sale be notarized? (I can't see it standing up in court if not notarized)

3. How important do you think it is to have a bill of sale?

Thanks!

by dbarnes357 on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:43 pm

Good question, the answer to #1 as you predicted is no. The others I'm interested to hear answered as well.

by gunluvinatty on Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:34 pm

1. No.
2. No. Notarizing doesn't make it any less hearsay (double hearsay in fact).
3. I get one. Hard to say how important it might be for you.

by **captain-03** on Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:40 pm

1. No
2. Notorized always better in that the parties have to show identification;
3. I usually get one; especially from someone I do not know very well. It serves to protect both the buyer and seller. If used in a crime the seller has something to say it no longer belongs to them. A seller could report a gun stolen that he/she sold and the buyer could be on the "hook" if he can not prove he purchased it.

Just a good thing all the around in keeping everyone above board!!

by PhillipM on Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:47 pm

gunluvinatty wrote:1. No.
2. No. Notarizing doesn't make it any less hearsay (double hearsay in fact).
3. I get one. Hard to say how important it might be for you.

I thought if a Bill of Sale had two witnesses it was as good as being notarized. Is this true?

by gunluvinatty on Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:04 pm

I can only suppose someone heard this in another context, such as execution of a will or advanced health care directive, and carried it over. Bills of sale are not required. They don't have to be notarized. They don't have to be witnessed. It doesn't matter if they are witnessed by 2, 5, or 100 folks, or if they are notarized; none of that would make the paper automatically admissible in a court of law.

by PhillipM on Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:16 pm

gunluvinatty wrote:I can only suppose someone heard this in another context, such as execution of a will or advanced health care directive, and carried it over. Bills of sale are not required. They don't have to be notarized. They don't have to be witnessed. It doesn't matter if they are witnessed by 2, 5, or 100 folks, or if they are notarized; none of that would make the paper automatically admissible in a court of law.

It was purchasing a pre 1969 car that had never been titled. Thanks for clearing that up.

ETA: For our younger forum members, before 1969 Mississippi didn't have titles. For vehicles without one, you could get one post 1969 but it was never made mandatory. I took a bill of sale to the courthouse and bought a tag for my 1948 Willys jeep and still haven't titled it.

by Subsonix on Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:32 pm

TY Luvin' !!

by Hrdnox on Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:28 pm

Guess I'm just too ignorant to know any better, but to me undocumented means undocumented, period. If the other party wants or thinks they need a BOS, I have no problem providing one for them, but I don't need no stinkin' paperwork from an individual, because the ATF says so and that's good enough for me. I've quit giving my DL # on the BOS, though. I'll show it to you to prove I'm a resident, but I don't need a piece of paper to get stolen from your home with that much of my info on it.

I usually know who I've bought or sold a gun to or from, so I don't need any paperwork in my house with your info on it to get stolen, either. I seriously doubt a bill of sale on a gun is actaully worth the paper it written on anyway, but if it makes you feel better, go for it. In the meantime, my life will be a lot easier than yours while both of us follow the letter of the law. When the Feds say I need a BOS is when I'll start having one. Until then, a handshake will suffice. Smile

by dhollis51 on Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:32 pm

I like to have the documentation of me selling the firearm. I have had a BOS on the past 2 sales and will have one from here on out.

by Leopardcurdog on Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:27 pm

I don't want one, and I won't do one, buying or selling. I'm not a scribe for the gov. I have friends in IL. That state requires that the person who sales a firearm, keep a record of the person they sold it to, that person's FOID number, and the specifics of the gun. They have to keep a copy of that transaction for 10 years. A lot of folks like to make fun of Illinois folks, but then turn around and saddle themselves with the same type of thing.

I just don't see how a BOS will benefit me at all.

by PhillipM on Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:37 pm

dhollis51 wrote:I like to have the documentation of me selling the firearm. I have had a BOS on the past 2 sales and will have one from here on out.

Do you have a bill of sale for every purchase and sale? If not, why not?

by dhollis51 on Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:06 pm

PhillipM wrote:
dhollis51 wrote:I like to have the documentation of me selling the firearm. I have had a BOS on the past 2 sales and will have one from here on out.

Do you have a bill of sale for every purchase and sale? If not, why not?

I have every sales reciept that I have bought a firearm but just started doing the BOS on the last two firearms I have sold and have only sold 5 firearms my whole life. I figured I would rather have the proof that I sold them than not have any proof at all. Just a preferrence for me. If the person doesnt want to show me a dl/ccw I can sell it to someone else. I have even asked the person to verify the info on the dl but that means nothing cause I remembered my brothers dl when I was 16 and buying beer with his id.

by PhillipM on Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:14 pm

dhollis51 wrote:
PhillipM wrote:
dhollis51 wrote:I like to have the documentation of me selling the firearm. I have had a BOS on the past 2 sales and will have one from here on out.

Do you have a bill of sale for every purchase and sale? If not, why not?

I have every sales reciept that I have bought a firearm but just started doing the BOS on the last two firearms I have sold and have only sold 5 firearms my whole life. I figured I would rather have the proof that I sold them than not have any proof at all. Just a preferrence for me. If the person doesnt want to show me a dl/ccw I can sell it to someone else. I have even asked the person to verify the info on the dl but that means nothing cause I remembered my brothers dl when I was 16 and buying beer with his id.

I meant bills of sale on items other than firearms. Sorry for the confusion.

by Eaglestroker on Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:19 pm

I don't sell guns. Problem solved Smile

by dhollis51 on Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:25 pm

I buy too much crap too keep every reciept but do keep my stubs to post in the ol check book and then throw them away but have a file for gun related items.

by 22lrfan on Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:38 pm

I do a lot of trading and I've never done a bill of sale. I've got a detailed inventory of every gun I've ever had. The ones I've sold or traded have a note that says something like "Sold to individual on MSGO" and the date.

by Hrdnox on Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:20 am

22lrfan wrote:I do a lot of trading and I've never done a bill of sale. I've got a detailed inventory of every gun I've ever had. The ones I've sold or traded have a note that says something like "Sold to individual on MSGO" and the date.

Me too. First thing, I don't sell to anyone I'm not comfortable selling to, period. Most of the time, I know them and they know me, even if it is only from here on the board. If the gun was stolen and used nefariously from their house or my house, I don't think either of us would object to cooperating with law enforcement. I've turned down many sales from folks who just didn't sound the way I wanted them to over the phone. Probably a little discrimatory, but I don't really care. I'm not going to contribute to the crime problem, if I can keep from it. That said, I have all the info I need in my files and a BOS isn't something I need, since it's not required. If I bought a gun from you that got stolen from me, you can bet you'll be the second person I call and I'd hope for the same courtesy from anyone I've sold a gun to. To me, paper work is just another thing I'd have to be responsible for that I don't feel I need. I'd feel bad if someone stole a BOS from my house that had your info on it and used it somehow against you, like identity theft or something like that. I try to be careful about where my personal info ends up. I still put my address and phone number on BOSs for others, but I don't like to. I may start giving only my signature and phone number, since my phone isn't listed.

Forgive my ignorance... (bill of sale)

Forgive my ignorance... (bill of sale)

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