CLASH OF METAL-MAN ON MAN RULES

by Golfer on Mon 30 Jan 2012 - 13:09

First of all, thanks to all those that showed up early for set up, walked back and forth on resets, and especially those that stayed to the end for tear down. It stinks when you get eliminated early, believe me, I know, but in MY opinion it is good sportsmanship that if you are going to compete you have a responsibilty to stay to the end and help unless, on occasion, you have something that is really pressing. Going home early to take a nap is not a really pressing reason to leave early. Especially if you were't there early to set up.

It was brought to our attention this past Saturday that the "rules" for Man on Man have not been consistent and have changed from match to match, and possibly during the course of a match. This is a valid point and is now going to be addressed. As the De-Facto Secretary, I've been asked to formalize the rules so we will be consistent going forward. Let's face it, we all just want to go out and shoot, have fun, and be competitive and consistent rules will add to that.
We are eliminating the word "bye" from our vocabulary when we have an odd number of shooters, either to start the match or in any "round". If in any draw of numbers there is an odd number, that remaining number will be held to the side and will be paired up to shoot first with the next number drawn in the subsequent drawing. By doing it this way, there is no chance of having two "free" rounds in a row ( see, didn't use the word "bye", it was eliminated !!). This is simple and thanks to Hammer for the idea.

Matching Capacity - Both shooters must load to the capacity of the lowest denominator shooter, unless the lower capacity shooter waives this requirement ( i.e. - If an open shooter is shooting against a production, the production shooter may not feel the need to require the hi-capacity open shooter to download). If a semi shooter is shooting against a revolver, the semi shooter would need to download to match the capacity of the revolver, and any mags for reload would also need to be downloaded to match the capacity of the revolver. This applies also to an open vs. a single stack that would only hold ten rounds - the single stack could have the open or production shooter download to match their capacity.

Next - THE FINAL FOUR - In order to make it interesting for those that get to the final four, we are going to draw a chip on each run to determine the style of shooting for that run. In order to add some variety, instead of the choices only being three chips that included strong, weak, and reload, we are going to use 5 chips to try and eliminate the same shooting style in every match up. We are going to add a chip for "freestyle", and another "reload" chip ( so there will be two reload chips in the 5). The rule on the reload chips will be that all targets except the final target must be engaged and knocked down, then the reload done immediately before engaging the final stop popper.

We would also like to come up with some type of handicapping, other than shooters volunteering to give a popper or two. We hear too much " I ain't given nuttin to nobody". It's been a personal choice - if you take pride in beating old ladies, children, new shooters or me without trying to give yourself at least some competition, that's how it's been. Until we can come up with some type of handicapping we ask that when you come to the line, and if you know who the other shooter is, consider giving them an popper, at least in the first run, if you know or believe you normally are a better shooter. If they beat you, then don't give them anything in the second run. Simple.

Last is prizes - that has also changed from match to match. This month we paid the winner and the person who came in " first" in the second tier ( there were 20 shooters, so number 11 got paid. Thinking of making this more interesting . Like the winner, and whoever gets eliminated first both get paid $5, and the person who got eliminated at the 2/3 mark and the 1/3 mark, rounded as necessay based on the number of shooters also get $5. That way there are 4 "winners" and if you had three runs against a top shooter and got elimiated first you still get something for your frustration ( but the caveat is that you must still be around at the end of the match after tear down to collect Smile

). The 1/3 and 2/3 elimination positions will be determined at the start of the match and posted so there will be no confusion ( as i'm the one that thought of this and am already confused.).

Oh, one last thing. As the Secretary, I will be responsible for final ruling IF there are ANY disputes or questions as to the rules, after consulting with all concerned and listening to your trusted opinions. Let's face it kids - I'm not going to win the match so I don't really have a dog in the fight. Let's just shoot and have fun.

If anybody has constructive comments, let's hear it. We want to make this better and enjoyable for all.

by MickeyK on Mon 30 Jan 2012 - 16:10

Good ideas, Golfer.

We just need to make it consistent.

I'm usually in the running for first elimination so it gives me something to look forward to.

by MrClean on Mon 30 Jan 2012 - 18:01

if you take pride in beating old ladies, children, new shooters or me.....

by nothing on Mon 30 Jan 2012 - 18:25

I certainly appreciate you taking the time to put something in writing... almost as much as appreciate you putting me against Cliff two times in a row. I know you have my best interests in mind since you wanted me focus on my shooting without the remote possibility of winning a run. thumbs up

In all seriousness if there is anything I can do to help let me know. I have two fingers that can push keys and spell check, not sure what other skills I could offer.

by Bwana Six-Gun on Mon 30 Jan 2012 - 20:42

Good to see things put down in writing. I have only shot mano a mano a couple of times, but one thing you should add in the handicapping category, i.e. capacity. Make it clear that if shooting production (10 rds) vs open (many many rounds) that the shooters download to the lowest common denominator. (These are just examples, the idea is that no one has more rounds to shoot than the guy or gal they are facing.) Violation of this would result in a loss on the run. That would keep everyone honest.

My .02.

by jdphotoguy on Mon 30 Jan 2012 - 21:36

Bwana Six-Gun wrote:Good to see things put down in writing. I have only shot mano a mano a couple of times, but one thing you should add in the handicapping category, i.e. capacity. Make it clear that if shooting production (10 rds) vs open (many many rounds) that the shooters download to the lowest common denominator. (These are just examples, the idea is that no one has more rounds to shoot than the guy or gal they are facing.) Violation of this would result in a loss on the run. That would keep everyone honest.

My .02.

When I shot this last, which has been some time ago, the very thing you mentioned was already a rule, but you're right it needs to be written down.

by **Cliff Cargill** on Mon 30 Jan 2012 - 22:48

Matching capacity

We do that, and yes guys, we'll add it. Thanks for the catch.

by Golfer on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 7:55

[quote="Cliff Cargill"]Matching capacity

Yes - thanks for bringing this up Bwana - I should have included but forgot. Damn incompetant secretary you guys have !! Will be added that both shooters must load, and reload to lowest common denominator of the two shooters. i.e. - if semi facing 6 shot revolver, semi can only have 6 rounds in mags.

by ssanders224 on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 10:36

Sounds good Rick.
Does anyone know of any other clubs that host an event such as our Clash of metal??

I'm not suggesting we copy anyone... but it might be nice to know if there is any proven methods of handicapping and such.

by jdphotoguy on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 10:53

ssanders224 wrote:Sounds good Rick.
Does anyone know of any other clubs that host an event such as our Clash of metal??

I'm not suggesting we copy anyone... but it might be nice to know if there is any proven methods of handicapping and such.

My only suggestion would be something based off your USPSA Classification, but of course not everyone will have one.

The lower classified shooter gets 1 plate down for every 2 levels they are below the higher classified shooter. Here are some examples:

D shooter against C shooter - straight up no down plate handicap

D shooter against B shooter - 1 down plate handicap

D shooter against M shooter - 2 down plates handicap

by Golfer on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 10:58

I've only been to one other location and they matched up shooters according to USPSA classification. Not sure I'm crazy about that method. Perfect example - an unclassified shooter who is really good ( hint) against a brand new shooter still trying to learn a grip and site picture and they shoot even up ? Don't know if there is a real solution other than whoever is running the horn asking if anybody is giving anything, making a suggestion, and then the individual making the decision if they want to shoot a competitive run or if winning the run by 2 poppers is more important.

by jdphotoguy on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 11:06

Golfer wrote:I've only been to one other location and they matched up shooters according to USPSA classification. Not sure I'm crazy about that method. Perfect example - an unclassified shooter who is really good ( hint) against a brand new shooter still trying to learn a grip and site picture and they shoot even up ? Don't know if there is a real solution other than whoever is running the horn asking if anybody is giving anything, making a suggestion, and then the individual making the decision if they want to shoot a competitive run or if winning the run by 2 poppers is more important.

Well nothing will be perfect as you have sand baggers, can think of a few and then phenoms like Sanders who come out unclassified but are at least B class or higher shooters. In Sanders case, it only took one run to see that this boy can shoot.

And yes, I did go there and call out some sand baggers to man up and really shoot to their skill level on classifiers.

by JohnHeiter on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 11:16

You caught me. You caught the Tater. I'm actually Master Class but I sandbag on the local, state, area, and national match levels. I'm saving up so I'll be the dark horse at the next World Shoot. Gonna make Grauffel my "b word" I can't say.

by Golfer on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 11:19

jdphotoguy wrote:
And yes, I did go there and call out some sand baggers to man up and really shoot to their skill level on classifiers.

JD - I'm really not sanbagging !!! The sad part is I actually try !!!

by ssanders224 on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 11:30

USPSA classification obvioulsy wont work.
Id say half of our Clash shooters are not USPSA competitors??

Heck, I'm not even classified yet... So I guess I shouldnt give anyone plates?? lol

by **Xd357** on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 11:33

Golfer wrote:First of all, thanks to all those that showed up early for set up, walked back and forth on resets, and especially those that stayed to the end for tear down. It stinks when you get eliminated early, believe me, I know, but in MY opinion it is good sportsmanship that if you are going to compete you have a responsibilty to stay to the end and help unless, on occasion, you have something that is really pressing. Going home early to take a nap is not a really pressing reason to leave early. Especially if you were't there early to set up.

It was brought to our attention this past Saturday that the "rules" for Man on Man have not been consistent and have changed from match to match, and possibly during the course of a match. This is a valid point and is now going to be addressed. As the De-Facto Secretary, I've been asked to formalize the rules so we will be consistent going forward. Let's face it, we all just want to go out and shoot, have fun, and be competitive and consistent rules will add to that.
We are eliminating the word "bye" from our vocabulary when we have an odd number of shooters, either to start the match or in any "round". If in any draw of numbers there is an odd number, that remaining number will be held to the side and will be paired up to shoot first with the next number drawn in the subsequent drawing. By doing it this way, there is no chance of having two "free" rounds in a row ( see, didn't use the word "bye", it was eliminated !!). This is simple and thanks to Hammer for the idea.i like it

Next - THE FINAL FOUR - In order to make it interesting for those that get to the final four, we are going to draw a chip on each run to determine the style of shooting for that run. In order to add some variety, instead of the choices only being three chips that included strong, weak, and reload, we are going to use 5 chips to try and eliminate the same shooting style in every match up. We are going to add a chip for "freestyle", and another "reload" chip ( so there will be two reload chips in the 5). The rule on the reload chips will be that all targets except the final target must be engaged and knocked down, then the reload done immediately before engaging the final stop popper.this is not racing in my own opinion. taking the leaders in a race and tell them your must take a pit stop regardless if you need one or not. plus what if someone showed up with a pistol, holster and no mag pouches?, and lets say he's/she's on fire and makes it to the final 4. what will we tell him/her now you have to reload, shoot strong/week hand? i understand we're trying to make it "more" fun but i think it will cause more trouble that its worth.

We would also like to come up with some type of handicapping, other than shooters volunteering to give a popper or two. We hear too much " I ain't given nuttin to nobody". It's been a personal choice - if you take pride in beating old ladies, children, new shooters or me without trying to give yourself at least some competition, that's how it's been. Until we can come up with some type of handicapping we ask that when you come to the line, and if you know who the other shooter is, consider giving them an popper, at least in the first run, if you know or believe you normally are a better shooter. If they beat you, then don't give them anything in the second run. Simple. sounds good

Last is prizes - that has also changed from match to match. This month we paid the winner and the person who came in " first" in the second tier ( there were 20 shooters, so number 11 got paid. Thinking of making this more interesting . Like the winner, and whoever gets eliminated first both get paid $5, and the person who got eliminated at the 2/3 mark and the 1/3 mark, rounded as necessay based on the number of shooters also get $5. That way there are 4 "winners" and if you had three runs against a top shooter and got elimiated first you still get something for your frustration ( but the caveat is that you must still be around at the end of the match after tear down to collect :) ). The 1/3 and 2/3 elimination positions will be determined at the start of the match and posted so there will be no confusion ( as i'm the one that thought of this and am already confused.).when did we start giving away prizes?

Oh, one last thing. As the Secretary, I will be responsible for final ruling IF there are ANY disputes or questions as to the rules, after consulting with all concerned and listening to your trusted opinions. Let's face it kids - I'm not going to win the match so I don't really have a dog in the fight. Let's just shoot and have fun.

If anybody has constructive comments, let's hear it. We want to make this better and enjoyable for all.

the 1st man on man we shot was the best one ive shot. what im trying to say is it was simple easy and fun and i'd like to see it kept that way.

by ssanders224 on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 12:26

- THE FINAL FOUR - In order to make it interesting for those that get to the final four, we are going to draw a chip on each run to determine the style of shooting for that run. In order to add some variety, instead of the choices only being three chips that included strong, weak, and reload, we are going to use 5 chips to try and eliminate the same shooting style in every match up. We are going to add a chip for "freestyle", and another "reload" chip ( so there will be two reload chips in the 5). The rule on the reload chips will be that all targets except the final target must be engaged and knocked down, then the reload done immediately before engaging the final stop popper.[color=black]this is not racing in my own opinion. taking the leaders in a race and tell them your must take a pit stop regardless if you need one or not. plus what if someone showed up with a pistol, holster and no mag pouches?, and lets say he's/she's on fire and makes it to the final 4. what will we tell him/her now you have to reload, shoot strong/week hand? i understand we're trying to make it "more" fun but i think it will cause more trouble that its worth.[/quote]

I tend to somewhat agree with XD on this. I had fun changing it up at the end this past weekend, but I'm not sure about making it permanent. Asking me to add a restrictor plate on the last 2 laps of the race does not make sense to me. A drag race is a drag race. I like settling into a groove and trying to push my limit of how fast I can fire 5 shots that hit steel. What if a new guy or girl makes it to the final four? Asking someone new to draw and go weak hand as fast as they can seems like a bad idea. I like it for practices sake, but thats about it.

That being said, I'll be there with a smile on my face no matter what the rules are. If its a safe environment, where I get to shoot pistols with friendly people, I'm down!

by Golfer on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 13:03

Ok kids, I updated the original part of the thread for matching capacity - hope it makes sense. The points made regarding the Final Four are valid and need to be considered - we were trying to add some twist at the end to make it more interesting on the assumption that only the top shooters would be left. As far as handicapping - what JD proposed is along the lines of what I was thinking, but we do have the problem of so many shooters not having a classification which is why I didn't put it in. As far as "prizes", just trying to make it interesting for all and not just the top shooter's have a chance of winning something

by DBChaffin on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 13:52

ssanders224 wrote:Sounds good Rick.
Does anyone know of any other clubs that host an event such as our Clash of metal??

I'm not suggesting we copy anyone... but it might be nice to know if there is any proven methods of handicapping and such.

The Missouri Fall Classic used to have a man vs. man side match every year and they used a handicapping system that was similar to what JD mentioned. Of course it was a USPSA match so most everyone had a classification. They refined it over the years and I think it worked really well. It appears complicated when you first look at it, but it is really not bad if you have a cheat sheet and it made it about as even as could be considering the different equipment and classes at the match. It is right that nothing is perfect though, but I guess the idea is something like bracket racing at the drags.

The year I went to the Classic, the final four were an A Open shooter, a B Production shooter (Matt Mink, as it were; yes, it has been a while), a C Limited shooter, and a M L10 shooter (the late Steve Broom shooting minor with a singlestack .38 Super) if I remember right. Oh, and it was popular, too. Over 70 people signed up that year at $10 each and it was single elimination due to time constraints and getting 70 shooters through in a decent time.

Most people have stopped reading by now, but for those that haven't, I have a copy of it at the house I believe, but from memory it something like this:
First, it requires a lot more steel. Specifically 10 pieces per side plus crossover. That's 22 total for you folks North of I-20. Don't get your undies in a wad just yet, you don't always shoot that many. Second, they required a reload before the stop/crossover popper every run. Note that it could be anytime before the crossover, so you could literally draw and shoot one round, reload, and finish. If the crossover was hit before the other poppers were hit/falling, it was a forfeited run, so many competitors saved the reload until after the rest of their steel was down but that was all part of the strategy. I like the reload, personally, and think it is important in keeping the system balanced. I'll pick on Sanders for a minute, but when you have someone like him that comes in shooting really well he will have a huge advantage shooting less poppers than someone that has competed for a while. And while he individually may reload very well, odds are that is not something a new competitor, even one that shoots well, has done and the more seasoned competitor will have a slight edge offsetting at least somewhat the different number of poppers. I recognize there would be problems with shooters that never get classified but shoot this match regularly. As much as I hate them, local classifications after a match or two would probably be better than nothing if a system like this was used. They then did their handicapping/popper dropping by both division and class. I don't have it in front of me but think I still have a copy somewhere of the specifics.

All that being said, I don't really like handicapping personally. My favorite man vs. man matches from the past have all been heads up. One of those is the first I ever shot, sometime in 2001 at Magnolia if I remember right. The USPSA match got rained out so we set up steel and shot from under the covered firing line. I was in C class shooting a Glock and went pretty deep through the field, although I was ultimately put out by Doc Cabell I think who was shooting A class Limited at the time with a singlestack 1911. Ah, the good ole days.

by **Cliff Cargill** on Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 14:11

Good discussion all.

The first year of Clash of Metal was an experiment because there wasn't a set format. We had growing pains and tweaking the first year not unlike any new shooting sport. Jeff Cooper's Columbia Conference (founding of IPSC) and the 1970's "leather-strap" matches out West were far different from what a USPSA match looks like today.

We're no better, or different.

As for the "FINAL FOUR", it's not unlike NASCAR'S "CHASE For The Championship". Just an element of excitement that shooters need to come try.

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