Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

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Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by dpayne on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:42 pm

Ok everyone, I've tried to search and couldn't find what I was looking for quickly so I'm starting a new thread.

This weekend I was carrying as normal and not drinking or anything. It wasn't until we were leaving that I noticed the no firearms sign on the entrance to the business I was in. Granted, no one spotted my LC9 and it was concealed very well I still broke the law unintentionally. Normally I do not go into posted businesses or I disarm and lock it up in my truck prior to entrance (what a pain).

My question is what is the penalty and charge if I would have been "made"? I have a regular Firearms Permit w/out the enhanced sticker.

My understanding is with the enhanced permit I would be asked to leave (which I would) or face a trespass charge. Is this correct?

What about us who have not gotten "enhanced" yet? What would I have faced if I was "made"?

Stupid error on my part, I should have noticed the sign, but I didn't.

Sorry in advance if this has been asked previously.

Thanks.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by mississipvol on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:48 pm

I did the same thing recently so I would love to know the answer as well.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by bigun220 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:51 pm

If the sign is valid, you could be charged with illegally carrying a concealed pistol (misdemeanor) since you don't have the IC sticker. See 97-37-1. If you are "made" by the owner, you might just be asked to leave.

As far as i know, you can carry in locations with no-gun signs with the IC sticker until you are asked to leave. Otherwise, you could face trespassing charges.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by dpayne on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:54 pm

bigun220 wrote:If the sign is valid, you could be charged with illegally carrying a concealed pistol (misdemeanor) since you don't have the IC sticker. See 97-37-1. If you are "made" by the owner, you might just be asked to leave.

As far as i know, you can carry in locations with no-gun signs with the IC sticker until you are asked to leave. Otherwise, you could face trespassing charges.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the reply. Looks like I need to schedule my class for the IC sticker to avoid this issue in the future. I don't want to contribute to the media frenzy with a CCW holder being charged for "breaking the law."

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by jakeg823 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:30 am

Was it a proper sign as specified by the law or was it a gun with a slash through it? The latter is not legal is why I ask. The law in MS is VERY clear about what the sign should say

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by jbpmidas on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:45 am

To my understanding, the IC sticker does not allow you to carry into a posted business. The posted business is an ownership decision and the IC sticker does not override their decision.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by mississipvol on Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:30 am

jbpmidas wrote:To my understanding, the IC sticker does not allow you to carry into a posted business. The posted business is an ownership decision and the IC sticker does not override their decision.

The way the law is written it sure seems that the IC allows you to. The law regarding the enhanced sticker says that you can carry in all places previously prohibited and then lists a couple places you can't carry such as a court in session. My LEO friend said it would allow me to take it anywhere but a law enforcement agency or court in session.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by miker84 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:44 am

jbpmidas wrote:To my understanding, the IC sticker does not allow you to carry into a posted business. The posted business is an ownership decision and the IC sticker does not override their decision.

The opinion among all I've spoken to is that if the sign is valid, the IC sticker doesn't trump the property owner's rights, but it keeps you from getting charged with a trespass.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by senilking on Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:58 am

miker84 wrote:
jbpmidas wrote:To my understanding, the IC sticker does not allow you to carry into a posted business. The posted business is an ownership decision and the IC sticker does not override their decision.

The opinion among all I've spoken to is that if the sign is valid, the IC sticker doesn't trump the property owner's rights, but it keeps you from getting charged with a trespass.

I not only agree with this opinion, I support it. I would rather be able to forbid someone from bringing one on my land if I wanted to.

Edit. Wait, I'm not sure now. If someone brings something not illegal onto your property when you told them not to, but invited them without knowing they had it, should you be able to charge them with trespassing?

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by mississipvol on Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:16 am

Here is the law as written:

A person licensed under Section 45-9-101 to carry a concealed pistol, who has voluntarily completed an instructional course in the safe handling and use of firearms offered by an instructor certified by a nationally recognized organization that customarily offers firearms training, or by any other organization approved by the Department of Public Safety, shall also be authorized to carry weapons in courthouses except in courtrooms during a judicial proceeding, and any location listed in subsection (13) of Section 45-9-101, except any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, any police, sheriff or highway patrol station or any detention facility, prison or jail.

The underlined wording is what I referred to. It clearly says that you are allowed to carry in places with a posted sign (that is one of the places listed in section 45-9-101). However, if I was carrying in one of those places and the owner came up to me and asked me to leave because someone had seen me print, then I would leave without argument because then I would be treading on another law potentially - tresspassing.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by southernfire97 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:09 pm

Well we had this same "discussion" the other day on another forum and I was told by an NRA approved instructor that you were indeed allowed to carry in a posted building WITH an enhanced carry.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by vblackwell on Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:27 pm

mississipvol wrote: The underlined wording is what I referred to. It clearly says that you are allowed to carry in places with a posted sign (that is one of the places listed in section 45-9-101). However, if I was carrying in one of those places and the owner came up to me and asked me to leave because someone had seen me print, then I would leave without argument because then I would be treading on another law potentially - tresspassing.
I agree 100%.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by savageshooter on Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:26 pm

http://safefireshooting.com/MS_Concealed_Carry.html

got this from laws section on msgo. it is real clear what you can do and not do with a ic.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by YowLaw on Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:05 am

You might want to get the instructor to put that in writing and provide you with a copy of his professional liability policy, so you can sue him in the event that you are arrested and prosecuted for criminal trespassing.

We have a case now where retired veteran was arrested after his concealed firearm was noticed by security. Building was clearly posted, but veteran walked past the sign because his instructor told him that he could now ignore signs. Plaintiff was arrested with his family present. Pretty traumatic for the grandchildren seeing their grandpa get arrested, but the state cannot take away the right of a business owner who wants to exclude firearms.



southernfire97 wrote:Well we had this same "discussion" the other day on another forum and I was told by an NRA approved instructor that you were indeed allowed to carry in a posted building WITH an enhanced carry.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by miker84 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:31 am

I think that is the question Nathan, does the IC prevent you from being arrested for trespassing ? In other words, you still have to leave if asked, but it isn't as serious.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by cdwolf on Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:07 am

YowLaw wrote:You might want to get the instructor to put that in writing and provide you with a copy of his professional liability policy, so you can sue him in the event that you are arrested and prosecuted for criminal trespassing.

We have a case now where retired veteran was arrested after his concealed firearm was noticed by security. Building was clearly posted, but veteran walked past the sign because his instructor told him that he could now ignore signs. Plaintiff was arrested with his family present. Pretty traumatic for the grandchildren seeing their grandpa get arrested, but the state cannot take away the right of a business owner who wants to exclude firearms.



southernfire97 wrote:Well we had this same "discussion" the other day on another forum and I was told by an NRA approved instructor that you were indeed allowed to carry in a posted building WITH an enhanced carry.
Was he asked to leave, or just arrested?

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by YowLaw on Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:17 am

If the building was properly posted, the IC endorsement won't help you on private property. The biggest thing to remember that with the IC endorsement, you are not a police officer and still have restrictions. There is no duty for the property owner to ask you to leave because an IC permit holder is trespassing when they walk past a properly posted sign. A prudent business owner will allow you to carry a firearm in their business, but if they restrict firearms and properly post notices, take your business elsewhere.






miker84 wrote:I think that is the question Nathan, does the IC prevent you from being arrested for trespassing ? In other words, you still have to leave if asked, but it isn't as serious.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by YowLaw on Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:25 am

He was asked by unarmed security if he was law enforcement. Plaintiff stated that he was not law enforcement, but showed him IC endorsement and stated that he could carry a gun on their property. Security walked away and called police. Plaintiff went on with his business and police showed up and took him away. According to witnesses, he was not asked to leave prior to calling the police. Although asking him to leave would have been a better business decision, the business had no legal requirement to ask permit holder to leave because he was trespassing.



cdwolf wrote:
YowLaw wrote:You might want to get the instructor to put that in writing and provide you with a copy of his professional liability policy, so you can sue him in the event that you are arrested and prosecuted for criminal trespassing.

We have a case now where retired veteran was arrested after his concealed firearm was noticed by security. Building was clearly posted, but veteran walked past the sign because his instructor told him that he could now ignore signs. Plaintiff was arrested with his family present. Pretty traumatic for the grandchildren seeing their grandpa get arrested, but the state cannot take away the right of a business owner who wants to exclude firearms.



southernfire97 wrote:Well we had this same "discussion" the other day on another forum and I was told by an NRA approved instructor that you were indeed allowed to carry in a posted building WITH an enhanced carry.
Was he asked to leave, or just arrested?

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by sigma74216 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:41 am

YowLaw wrote:

We have a case now where retired veteran was arrested after his concealed firearm was noticed by security. Building was clearly posted, but veteran walked past the sign because his instructor told him that he could now ignore signs. Plaintiff was arrested with his family present. Pretty traumatic for the grandchildren seeing their grandpa get arrested, but the state cannot take away the right of a business owner who wants to exclude firearms.
[/quote]

Let us know how this turns out.
The way the law reads it is ok to carry with IC permit.
Is he charged with trespassing or carrying a concealed weapon?
We all know some LEO's do not know the laws like they should so just because he was arrested doesn't mean he should have been.
Yes the property owner/manager can tell you to leave but if the law says you can carry there, then until your told to leave your not breaking any laws.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by cwink on Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:50 am

YowLaw wrote:You might want to get the instructor to put that in writing and provide you with a copy of his professional liability policy, so you can sue him in the event that you are arrested and prosecuted for criminal trespassing.

We have a case now where retired veteran was arrested after his concealed firearm was noticed by security. Building was clearly posted, but veteran walked past the sign because his instructor told him that he could now ignore signs. Plaintiff was arrested with his family present. Pretty traumatic for the grandchildren seeing their grandpa get arrested, but the state cannot take away the right of a business owner who wants to exclude firearms.



southernfire97 wrote:Well we had this same "discussion" the other day on another forum and I was told by an NRA approved instructor that you were indeed allowed to carry in a posted building WITH an enhanced carry.

You note that right below that on my site, I put

"This is a general description of where you can and can not carry under MS Laws. Please see the link to the MS Firearms Permit Unit on the left side of this page to access all the current legal information"

I tell all my students that they should respect the wishes of the property owner, and that if you find a situtation where you come accross this sign, to take off your firearm and walk inside and tell the owner that you would love to be a customer of thiers but your not willing to risk your life on it and walk out. There are a lot of gray ares in this new law and there is no case law on the books on how this decision will go. I do not want to be the test case..

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by CinBrandon on Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:24 pm

YowLaw
First, looks like you are new. Welcome and thanks for sharing some of your knowledge here.

Was this in the great state of MS?

It sounds like the case is on-going... But if you're able to, feel free to share the business so we all know not to do business there.

Thanks for sharing the advice and keeping us posted as it develops and you are allowed.

thanks

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by Shibby1515 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:59 pm

I'm sorry but I'm new. What is the IC sticker y'all are talking about?

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by cdwolf on Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:05 pm

Shibby1515 wrote:I'm sorry but I'm new. What is the IC sticker y'all are talking about?
Try this
http://www.msgunowners.com/t26102-enhanced-permit

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by Shibby1515 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:13 pm

Thank you sir.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by YowLaw on Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:09 pm

I post under the name Mississippi Auto Arms along with several other employees, but Mississippi Auto Arms does not engage in the business of practice law, so I created a new name for my law firm for legal topics.

Our case happened in a retail store, but I can see it becoming an issue in restaurant and bars. We were retained by a firm to help them with the case. The case will settle without going to Court. If someone doesn't want you to come onto your premises with a firearm and you refuse to boycot them, be prepared for trespassing charges.


quote="CinBrandon"]YowLaw
First, looks like you are new. Welcome and thanks for sharing some of your knowledge here.

Was this in the great state of MS?

It sounds like the case is on-going... But if you're able to, feel free to share the business so we all know not to do business there.

Thanks for sharing the advice and keeping us posted as it develops and you are allowed.

thanks[/quote]

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by vblackwell on Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:34 pm

If you can't carry where no gun signs are posted then the law should read like this.....

shall also be authorized to carry weapons in courthouses except in courtrooms during a judicial proceeding, and any location listed in subsection (13) of Section 45-9-101, except any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, any police, sheriff or highway patrol station or any detention facility, prison or jail or where no gun signs are posted.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by 94LEVERFAN on Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:52 pm

02hdrider wrote:If you can't carry where no gun signs are posted then the law should read like this.....

shall also be authorized to carry weapons in courthouses except in courtrooms during a judicial proceeding, and any location listed in subsection (13) of Section 45-9-101, except any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, any police, sheriff or highway patrol station or any detention facility, prison or jail or where no gun signs are posted.

Agreed. IANAL, but I can read english. It does not say maybe, it says ANY LOCATION listed in subsection 13. What is so damn hard to understand about that??

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by senilking on Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:55 pm

02hdrider wrote:If you can't carry where no gun signs are posted then the law should read like this.....

shall also be authorized to carry weapons in courthouses except in courtrooms during a judicial proceeding, and any location listed in subsection (13) of Section 45-9-101, except any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, any police, sheriff or highway patrol station or any detention facility, prison or jail or where no gun signs are posted.

If that's what they meant, that's what it should say. Legally, it sounds like it says you can carry there. I would say that forcing people to allow guns on their private property goes against the constitution, but the government doesn't seem too worried about stomping on it every chance they get anyways.
They might as well go ahead and put federal buildings in there too. It should all be said in one nice neat place.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by YowLaw on Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:58 pm

There are a lot of ways that the law could have been better structured. Based on a reading of the law, you can now carry any place that is prohibited by federal law in Mississippi. Since federal law trumps state law when conflicts exist, this is another area that requires additional research before an opinion can be formulated. We have quite a few people who take our class solely for the Mississippi law section because their instructors have given them incorrect legal opinions.




94LEVERFAN wrote:
02hdrider wrote:If you can't carry where no gun signs are posted then the law should read like this.....

shall also be authorized to carry weapons in courthouses except in courtrooms during a judicial proceeding, and any location listed in subsection (13) of Section 45-9-101, except any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, any police, sheriff or highway patrol station or any detention facility, prison or jail or where no gun signs are posted.

Agreed. IANAL, but I can read english. It does not say maybe, it says ANY LOCATION listed in subsection 13. What is so damn hard to understand about that??

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by bubbat on Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:44 pm

02hdrider wrote:If you can't carry where no gun signs are posted then the law should read like this.....

shall also be authorized to carry weapons in courthouses except in courtrooms during a judicial proceeding, and any location listed in subsection (13) of Section 45-9-101, except any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, any police, sheriff or highway patrol station or any detention facility, prison or jail or where no gun signs are posted.

Shouldn't that be "or private property and businesses that are posted no guns allowed"? because if it is just "where no gun signs are posted" then all the places the enhanced permit allows you to carry has to do is put up a sign to stop you. scratch

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by snakeyez on Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:54 pm

After reading all of this, I'm beginning to wonder if the Enhanced sticker is even worth getting.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by vblackwell on Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:12 am

bubbat wrote:
02hdrider wrote:If you can't carry where no gun signs are posted then the law should read like this.....

shall also be authorized to carry weapons in courthouses except in courtrooms during a judicial proceeding, and any location listed in subsection (13) of Section 45-9-101, except any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, any police, sheriff or highway patrol station or any detention facility, prison or jail or where no gun signs are posted.

Shouldn't that be "or private property and businesses that are posted no guns allowed"? because if it is just "where no gun signs are posted" then all the places the enhanced permit allows you to carry has to do is put up a sign to stop you. scratch
Your right Bubbat, but however it should read, it doesn't! Im reading it to say that I can carry concealed in courthouses except in courtrooms during a judicial proceeding, and any location listed in subsection (13) of Section 45-9-101, except any place of nuisance as defined in Section 95-3-1, any police, sheriff or highway patrol station or any detention facility, prison or jail. IMHO, and this might get me in trouble, Im carrying everywhere but those places listed. Ive always carried that way and will continue to! Concealed means concealed! The crimminals can't read those signs either!

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by miker84 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:33 am

I can't remember if it was on this board or another, but I think there was a discussion about residential private property vs places of business. I think the owner of a home has a right to bar anyone from entering, but a retail place of business is different. If I tell a non-employee that they can't come into my office or if I tell them to leave, I have to have a reason.....other than "because I said so".

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by patchz on Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:09 pm

miker84 wrote:I can't remember if it was on this board or another, but I think there was a discussion about residential private property vs places of business. I think the owner of a home has a right to bar anyone from entering, but a retail place of business is different. If I tell a non-employee that they can't come into my office or if I tell them to leave, I have to have a reason.....other than "because I said so".
I think you have a valid point, to a point. But wouldn't that be the same thing as a "No shoes, no shirt, no service" sign?

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by miker84 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:09 pm

patchz wrote:
miker84 wrote:I can't remember if it was on this board or another, but I think there was a discussion about residential private property vs places of business. I think the owner of a home has a right to bar anyone from entering, but a retail place of business is different. If I tell a non-employee that they can't come into my office or if I tell them to leave, I have to have a reason.....other than "because I said so".
I think you have a valid point, to a point. But wouldn't that be the same thing as a "No shoes, no shirt, no service" sign?

The no shoes no service sign is similar, but there isn't an enhanced no shoes permit that I know of. lol


I guess the root of the question is this; at what point has criminal trespass occurred? The Enhanced Carry law seems to say that you can carry in a place that has the sign (not talking about govt). At the same time, the property owner ( or his agent/representative) has the right to tell you to leave, and if you don't that would be a trespass in my opinion.

A drunk kept coming into my business to use the restroom. I told him to find somewhere else, he got mad and refused to leave. At that point, I called the police and the first thing they asked me was "Have you asked him leave?" I said "yes" they said "good enough" sent an officer to check it out. They asked if I wanted to press charges and I said "No, just get him out of here".

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by vblackwell on Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:47 pm

Well, like I stated in my earlier post, Im going to carry my weapon everywhere except where HB 506 states not to. Might get me into trouble one day but, the criminals don't care if its got a No Firearms sign or not. They probably think thats the better place to try and hit anyway, since the sign on the door tells them no one in there will be carrying! Most of the time I will do business elsewhere, but if I really need to go in there, Id rather have my weapon in case I needed it rather than not having it and become a victim!

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by senilking on Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:08 pm

Just thinking out loud.

Regular Permit
Writing No Guns in small letters does not mean people can't carry on your property. It has to be readable from 10 feet, and then the law forbids it. So, actually, the law allows carrying on private property with a permit, unless the owner provides the required action to prevent it.

Enhanced Permit
There is no way to prevent people with guns on your property provided by the law. So you have to invoke the "I don't like you, get off or be trespassing" law. Just like writing "No Guns" in small letters doesn't stop a regular permit, "No Guns" readable from 10 feet doesn't stop enhanced. It sounds just as legal for them to carry a gun as to wear shoes.

All in all, I'll probably still not. At least until there is a precedent set one way or the other. Or a situation changes my mind. I think if I really feel the need to carry into a place with a sign (like all of south Jackson), I'll just find a different place.

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CARRYING ENHANCED WITH SIGNS POSTED ON BUSINESS

Post by rickward on Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:12 pm

YOLAW hasn't indicated whether or not his veteran client had an enhanced sticker or not (unless I missed it).

The AG issued an opinion on that subject with regards to county property to Sheriff Jim Johnson of Tupelo on August 31, 2011. There may be a difference when it comes to private property, I don't know, but if you read that opinion (on my website under the document tab), you may feel it applies elsewhere. It basically says that the House Bill 506 took away the authority for the county to post notice against carrying and even if they did and a person with an enhanced permit carried on the premises, he would not violate the firearms statute. It does not address tresspassing.

http://www.concealedweaponcarry.com

However, let me say this and I say it to all my students. A police officer can arrest you for just about anything. I spent 14 years in the business and I saw bad guys and I saw good guys. I saw ignorance and I saw arrogance. I have heard officers say something along the lines of, "I don't care what the law says; I will arrest the guy anyway, charge him and put him in jail, then he will have to pay a bondsman to get out, probably have his car towed and pay for that, then pay a lawyer to represent him. Guility or not, he will pay out the ass for it." I am not proud that my law enforcement brethern have made those type statements but it's true. If you think about it there is ignorance and arrogance in every profession, not just law enforcement. I have friends that are law enforcement officers, even chiefs of police, who DO NOT know the law and many have never heard of the word "enhanced carry." If they don't know as heads of agencies, it is not likely their officers on the street know the law either.

Sounds to me though that the business, not the law enforcement officer would need to press those charges of tresspassing.

As to whether or not you could be convicted for tresspassing without having been asked to leave, that will be up to a judge and how well a lawyer does his job. A trespassing charge shouldn't be that hard to beat. Since YOLAW used the word "Plantiff" instead of defendant and saying "this case will settle out of court,", it sounds like the veteran is suing the business rather than defending a tresspassing charge as a defendant.

Remember though....a good lawyer knows the law....but a great lawyer knows the judge.

Rick Ward

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by stantheman1976 on Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:53 pm

Bill Long is the guy who taught my enhanced carry class. I asked him recently about carry in K-12 schools with the enhanced permit. His answer directly from the DPS was that carry is allowed with the IC sticker but any property can disallow the carry of firearms, even with the sticker. According to the DPS if any property has a no guns policy, written or verbal, and you know that policy before you come on the property you are trespassing if you violate it.

So any of us with the IC sticker who carry in any location that we know or think may have a no weapons policy are taking a chance.

I believe the adage I've seen a thousand times on different gun boards, "concealed means concealed." Carry smart and keep your chances of being discovered to a minimum. On the off chance that you get in a situation in any of those places where you need to use your weapon you'll likely have much bigger things to worry about than whether the property had a no guns sign and you have a sticker.

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POSTING SIGNS ON "ANY PROPERTY"

Post by rickward on Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:48 pm

Stantherman1976

I agree for the most part on what Bill Long said, but I would be careful saying "any property" since the AG has already issued an opinion that the "counties" signs had no bearing on an individual with concealed carry being charged with a violation of the weapons law. AG lawyers are embedded in the state agencies. DPS lawyers, like all others rely on AG opinions when the law is not clear or when they want a certain matter settled.

There are 3 attorney general opinions that deal with signage, educational institutions and open carry on my website under the "document tab." If anybody wants to read or download them they can go to:

http://www.concealedweaponcarry.com

You may also be well on to prohibited property before you know it. For example Judge Tomie Green has excluded weapons not only in the courtrooms but the hallways, to the outer doors and the grounds of the courthouse in Hinds County. I haven't seen any signs on the outer grounds so you may approach the building and not know of the restrictions until you reach the metal detector at the door.

But I agree, I will gladly pay a misdemeanor tresspassing charge if I am in a business where I am forced to save my life or the lives of those around me. If I happen to save the business owner, his family members, employees or customers, I suspect, he'll be damn glad I was there like the banker in Texas who now displays a sign welcoming gun toters.

The problem we have is those people who want to show off their weapon in such a way as to impress somebody causing alarm and fear for the customers or operators. It's like anything else, 5 percent of the people cause 95 percent of the problems.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by stantheman1976 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:10 pm

I read the AG letter regarding schools but it only covered universities didn't it? Or did I just jot read it close enough.

Are K-12 schools considered county properties? That would mean that state law supersedes county law and with the enhanced permit it is acceptable then?

Oy vey. My brain is hanging upside down.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by mhead on Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:05 pm

Wasn't the purpose of the enhanced carry more for goverment type buildings ? No way the government can tell you that you can carry a firearm in someones private house or business that doesn't allow it because you have a sticker. I'm all for being able to carry guns but I don't think that's constitutional. I d@mn sure don't want the government deciding who can and who can't come in my private business.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by Doug Bowser on Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:21 pm

I was in Missouri recently. They have anti-gun signs but you can only be asked to leave. If you refuse, you can be charged with trespassing.

I believe the law is the same here. If you have the enhanced firearms permit, you cannot be charged with trespass when carrying in a no gun zone. You can be asked to leave and if you don't, you can be charged with illegal trespass. If you don't have an enhanced firearms permit, you can be charged with illegal trespass, by simply ignoring the sign.

Do not carry in any Federal Building or property. They are overkill on this point. In Post Offices the sign says Postal property. That would probably include the parking lot.

Doug

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by rickward on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:16 pm

Doug:

There was a previous post by an Oxford lawyer whose screen name is Yowlaw, who said he had a client that was arrested in a business with a sign posted. I am paraphrasing when I say he indicated the posted sign was in itself sufficient to warn a person for not entering armed and that the proprietor was under no obligation to warn the armed person to leave. Please read the comment yourself in the event I have not summarized it accurately.

For stantherman1976 and mhead:

The issue of those of us with enhanced permits not affected by posted signs has already been addressed, not once, but twice by the Attorney General. His first response was to the Sheriff of Lee County and he re-addressed it to the Chancellor of Higher Education specifically citing his previous opinion to the Sheriff.

This excerpt to the Chancellor addresses both instances.

Question No. 3: Section 45-9-101(13) provides in part “... In addition to the places enumerated in this subsection, the carrying of a stun gun, concealed pistol or revolver may be disallowed in any place in the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of such place by the placing of a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten (10) feet that the ‘carrying of a pistol or revolver is prohibited.”’ Under applicable law, does a university have the option of preventing weapons on its campus, notwithstanding the amendment to Section 97-37-7, by posting notices as authorized by Section 45-9-101(13)?

Answer: No. See MS AG Op., Johnson (Aug. 31, 2011)(Sheriff may not outlaw endorsement permit holders by erecting sign forbidding firearms in courthouse since the exception applies to places where signs are erected)

Notice above that it says a pistol or revolver may be disallowed IN ANY PLACE in the discretion of the person exercising control over it. I interpret that as meaning any business, home, land or whatever, not just county property or school property even though they are the only ones who have requested an opinion. But it doesn't mean a person can be convicted of a firearms violation if he enters or a trespassing violation if he fails to see it or ignores it. Anybody can be charged with just about anything but that doesn't mean they can be convicted of it.

Notice also above though that the answer the AG gave to the Chancellor was the same he gave to the Sheriff “may not outlaw endorsement permit holders by erecting signs forbidding.”

You know though, maybe we are putting too much emphasis on this sign issue. I live in a very progressive area of the state that is growing like wildfire only a few miles from the Dogwood Mall in Flowood. There are tons of businesses all along Lakeland Drive in and around that area with competitors next door to each other. I made it a good part of my day to drive very slowly in front of scores of them today. I could not find a single sign on any business preventing firearms.

Most of the businesses were restaurants, including those that serve alcohol. But I creeped by car dealerships, used car lots, tire stores, doctors’ offices, department stores, tobacco stores, dry cleaners, oil change shops, garages, drug stores, grocery stores, clinics, hobby shops, clothing stores, building supply centers, auto supply stores, barber shops, beauty shops, theaters, gas stations and convenience stores, even churches. For every one business I saw, there were two or three competitors offering the same service or goods. If I had found any signs, I surely would have been able to go to a competitor more friendly to concealed firearms permit holders. Maybe you live in a different area with different views but this may also be an indication of where we are going with attitudes about concealed weapons as we progress.

Maybe we are just discontent with those few that do post signs. Maybe it’s just the issue that we want what we can’t have. Is it possible that we are just seeking them out and trying our luck? These businesses have got to be few and far between. I have said many times that 5 percent of the people cause 95 percent of the problem. I guess it is true with businesses also, but I believe there are those among us that want to show off with a weapon on and invite trouble too. That's not to say that everybody does, but remember that percentage that causes our greatest problems.

I remember as a young sailor 40 years ago visiting various ports, we always received pre-visit briefings. They told us where we should and shouldn’t go and specifically warned us of off-limits establishments. Guess what! That is exactly where many of us ended up and that’s where the trouble began. Maybe it is something inside us that tells us if a book or a movie is banned, it really is worth seeing and we will do whatever we can to see them.

Why don’t we just boycott those places and tell all our friends, family, co-workers and neighbors that they should do the same thing? Maybe they’ll go out of business. Even if they don’t, we can go elsewhere.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by cjc1227 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:06 pm

I have often wondered what would happen I you used your firearm in self defense in a posted building (ie the theater in Colorado).

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by Doug Bowser on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:43 am

[quote="rickward"]Doug:

There was a previous post by an Oxford lawyer whose screen name is Yowlaw, who said he had a client that was arrested in a business with a sign posted. I am paraphrasing when I say he indicated the posted sign was in itself sufficient to warn a person for not entering armed and that the proprietor was under no obligation to warn the armed person to leave. Please read the comment yourself in the event I have not summarized it accurately.

Rick,

I realize a person can be arrested for concealed carry in a posted business, even with the enhancement. What I was talking about was the law as written. Case law can be different than written law. I personally will not enter a business with a no-guns allowed sign. As you said, find a similar business without the signs posted.

There are several lawsuits that have been filed against the theater in Colorado. If they banned the legal carry of concealed weapons, the theater is fully responsible for the safety of their patrons. The alarms on the fire escape doors either did not work or were not really alarms at all. I have seen alarms in the back rooms of some businesses that were not alarm units at all. They were dummy units placed on the doors to try to stop people from leaving through the back door.

If we are going to boycott a business with the prohibitive anti-gun sign, we should send them a letter telling them of our decision to do business elsewhere.

Doug




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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by rickward on Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:45 am

Doug:

I agree 100 percent. I was just not sure if you had seen the earlier post.

Thanks,
Rick


I would also like to respond to CJC1227's question with my opinion:

As far as what they would do to you if you used your gun in self-defense in a posted building, from a criminal standpoint I don't think they could do anything other than they would do absent the shooting. If the crime is a misdemeanor for carrying your gun in, unless they have some sort of enhanced statute for using your gun in there, I doubt the punishment would be any different.

If you drive your car drunk, it is a misdemeanor. If you run off the road drunk and destroy a bunch of property, criminally, in most states you are probably going to be charged with the same offense. If you kill somebody in the process you could be charged with manslaughter, depraved heart, etc.

In the theater if you kill somebody unlawfully you will probably be charged with that crime. Most prosecutors will drop misdemeanor charges when prosecuting you for the more serious crimes.

Our justifiable homicide law allows us to stand our ground and use deadly force against a person attempting to take our lives. However, with regards to a duty to retreat, you may want to read paragraph 4, Miss Code 97-3-15 which says in the first line, "a person who is not the initial agressor and is not engaged in unlawful activity shall have no duty to retreat before using deadly force."

You can read the entire statute on my website under the document tab by going to:

http://www.concealedweaponcarry.com

I believe it could be argued that if you don't have an enhanced permit and the sign is posted, you ARE engaged in unlawful activty by bringing the gun there in the first place. I also believe it could also be argued that if indeed the sign by itself serves as a no trespassing sign for those who have the enhanced permit, (but I am not saying it does) that if you bring a gun in there, you are unlawfully on the premises and engaged in unlawful activity.

Then the question might arise, "did I have a duty to retreat?" and "if I killed somebody was it justifiable homicide since I was engaged in unlawful activity at the time?" It may be something you want to talk to your lawyer about, especially if you intend to ignore the signs.

Then there is a whole other world when it comes to the civil side as Doug mentioned about the multiple lawsuits. You should be insured and/or assisted by a self-defense league if you are going to carry, in my opinion. That is not a legal opinion...just common sense.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by CAJNFRND on Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:01 am

Great conversation guys. I'd really like to know more specifics about case Yowlaw mentioned.... Like what business? What happened to criminal charges? Were civil charges pressed? I know details probaly can't be discussed while case is pending.

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RESPONSE TO CAJNFRND

Post by rickward on Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:45 pm

Me too and I would like to know if the defendant/plantiff had an enhanced carry sticker, then how it was exposed so the business could see it. Also if the business or the officer signed the affidavit. I suspect there are more details that would change our views if we were privy to them. I would love to read the officer's offense report.

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Re: Concealed Carry in a posted building in Mississippi

Post by atw765 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:39 pm

does anyone know an instructor who can give the ic course around Starkville? half of this town is government property or a school campus

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