National Ordnance M1 carbine

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National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by Docs150 on Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:50 pm

I have a National Ordnance carbine but decided since someone out there may have another...they made many...I wouldn't add to Universal carbine topic. For a good study on this and others go to:m1carbinesinc.com. I at first thought the barrel was made by Small Arms Manufacturers Inc. as several were in the 60's but mine has 6 sets grooves. As far as the cast slide it is spec and has hundreds of rounds. I replaced the bolt assembly last year with one from Fulton Armory. It likes all ammo so far. I recently replaced original blocky front sight with MilSpec I've had for years. This carbine has been largely forgotten but had a background and was issued both in U.S. and many other countries to police and others. In reference to the slide-read about the mistake made with one they used for short time. Refer to above website to see it.


Last edited by Docs150 on Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:02 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by captain-03 on Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:03 pm

Got a first hand look at it on Friday at the range. Docs150 and I must have had the same thing for breakfast. We both arrived at the range with the same 2 guns - M1 Carbine & S&W 686.

The carbine seemed to be very well built. Thought I knew something about carbines but this one was new to me ..... have owned Univerals and Plainfields in the past but never a National Ordnance .. Cool!!

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by Docs150 on Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:08 pm

Spanish proverb: What cares the wolf how many sheep there be...
Captain...I went to slow but steady fire and rifle did what I said it would do. That's the way it goes sometimes...I should have brought more rounds for the scope seemed to be setting in. 7 of the last 11 rounds were in one hole almost 3/4" wide and almost 1" high (smaller). If had more rounds I could have owned the red dot but I was only 25 yards out. Don't know for sure if I'll keep the scope on much. I have found the replacement rear sight(adjustable) and it looks to be American made.


Last edited by Docs150 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by bonedust75 on Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:19 pm

worthless
I would like to see it please.

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by Docs150 on Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:30 pm

Soon as I can post it bonedust75. I thought about needing a picture. Does kind of make subjects complete doesn't it...

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by bonedust75 on Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:59 am

of course it makes it complete. Im waiting.... blink

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by Docs150 on Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:17 pm

Here he is...carbine 4-25-10_01.jpg Completely American made in the late 60's and now she wears a Fulton Armory bolt assembly.

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by Docs150 on Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:15 pm

Took her out today to test after putting in new gas piston. Using 45 110g Wolf rds she functioned flawless. Didn't take her past 25 yd line but all the rounds apparently liked each other just enough...LOL This particular version has a barrel which has 6 groove/land set instead of 2 or 4 like US military versions...probably an in-house version. Small Arms Manufacturing supposedly made most of their barrels during after 1963-for some period but they were 4-groove. These are the rifles used at San Quentin and other places way back including many overseas police units. It is wearing this rear sight now...http://stores.homestead.com/KenSight/-strse-Rifle-Sights-cln-Rear/Categories.bok Fully adjustable...scroll to bottom. http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by Tank373 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:49 am

I have one ;p

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by Docs150 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:01 am

Tank373 wrote:I have one ;p
First I've heard of since talking on this one. Ever shoot it...I forgot I also replaced the 40+ year old recoil spring with a Wolff...and have rest of kit in collection. With Sellier & Bellot's brass cartridges she improves in function and accuracy but keeping the 100 rounds I have in collection until can add a little more. If you look at picture on Flickr the scope is a Nikon 4X40 Buckmaster. If you go to the link I posted you'll see they also made one with just scope mount which is almost exactly like old mounts. The aluminum mounts you find today can be made very stable. I've gone back to strictly Hoppe's #9 Solvent and yesterday in a short period I pulled plenty of carbon and copper out of barrel. Some of the patches were a very pretty blue...lol. Let me no # of lands/grooves. Serial #'s cannot be traced unfortunately. Is yours in good shape? Go to the m1 link and on left side you'll see list in tan. Go to manufacturers and click on cartridge/headstamp...you'll find links at bottom of pages totalling 3...

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by Docs150 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:55 pm



The company that made(after parts ran out) the receiver is still in existence-at same address- after over 60 years and today holds a BBB rating of A+. They also have one in Bartlett, TN. Investment casting (having started over 5000 yrs ago) must work if properly applied. I know this one does. I also know that many firearms that go to the range everyday have many parts-major and minor(never thought a gun has a minor part) that are investment cast. I as others have used the term 'pot metal' and have seen cheaply made parts (such as connections on pressure washers) snap but know you cannot judge a book by its' cover. I do still check mine every now and then but except for a little missing bluing there's not a mark on this rifle. You as I own a part of a particular history although you do not read about it now as many years ago in publications you see everyday. Maybe it's time I do the article. Reckon anyone will read it? I'll have to get certain permissions for some of the info I'll use but it might bring guns that are left out of the attic...http://www.rimerinc.com/
Also parts of the plane(think turbines) that flew over yesterday, valves in nuclear power plants, the Space Shuttle are investment cast.

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by captain-03 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:35 pm

Those are nice little guns -- I believe they are much better than the Plainfield or Universal Carbines ....

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"Then, Sir, we shall give them the bayonet" Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by PhillipM on Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:49 pm

According to an email from the m1carbinesinc site I sent a couple years ago, I have an very early Plainfield and it is all USGI except for the receiver and a six groove barrel. I think the barrel was made by Marlin but I can't remember where I read that.

I'm not up on National Ordinance made carbines but I do know they made up 03A3's from cast receivers and they had problems with the cast metal wearing in the locking lug recess causing excessive headspace and kabooms! Movie trivia, a sharp eyed collector determined the sniper's rifle in Saving Pvt Ryan was a National Ordinance due to the larger receiver ring and lack of a stripper clip slot.

I think carbines are the Rodney Dangerfield of US military arms.

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by captain-03 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:53 pm

PhillipM wrote:According to an email from the m1carbinesinc site I sent a couple years ago, I have an very early Plainfield and it is all USGI except for the receiver and a six groove barrel. I think the barrel was made by Marlin but I can't remember where I read that..

IIRC, both Plainfield and Universal used some GI parts in their early production. Universal was not totally compatable to USGI and not all USGI parts would function properly .... the later productions relied on currently manufacture parts ...


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"For crying out loud, the Garand ain't a piece of fine china .. SMACK IT !!! Get yourself a rubber, plastic, wooden or leather hammer and smack the hell out of it. THAT is how they were put together when they were made."

"Then, Sir, we shall give them the bayonet" Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by PhillipM on Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:06 pm

captain-03 wrote:
PhillipM wrote:According to an email from the m1carbinesinc site I sent a couple years ago, I have an very early Plainfield and it is all USGI except for the receiver and a six groove barrel. I think the barrel was made by Marlin but I can't remember where I read that..

IIRC, both Plainfield and Universal used some GI parts in their early production. Universal was not totally compatable to USGI and not all USGI parts would function properly .... the later productions relied on currently manufacture parts ...


I've a friend trying to sell a 2 spring Universal for $200 I won't jump on.

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by captain-03 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:24 pm

I would not either!!

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"For crying out loud, the Garand ain't a piece of fine china .. SMACK IT !!! Get yourself a rubber, plastic, wooden or leather hammer and smack the hell out of it. THAT is how they were put together when they were made."

"Then, Sir, we shall give them the bayonet" Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by Docs150 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:41 pm

PhillipM...Captain-03 +1 and thanks for joining in...I thought my latest additions to my thread was going to laps in internet oblivion. I actually put this carbine up untouched except for quick inspection for almost 17 years due to a jam. Then I started shooting it again in 2008 and it fired 70rds(Winchester USA white box 110g FMJ) without problem until original bolt assembly cracked toward extractor. It didn't look well made. It was a round bolt when M1 GI calls for flat(correct me if I'm wrong). Hence the complete bolt assy from Fulton Armory. I can't remember if I changed original magazine spring...probably did. With my past years little bit of tinkering and the addition of ProMag(made in USA) magazine she's got my attention and will be used until she no longer can...once in-a-while anyway...

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by Docs150 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:57 pm

Until the patent expired in January 1960, National Ordnance worked with surplus GI carbine receivers and parts, assembled and sold with the names and/or markings of the original manufacturers left in place. The National Ordnance name was not placed on these carbines. During these years National Ordnance was run by Penney from his home in Arcadia, CA, and by Arnold from his apartment in Hollywood, CA.

As an example of the first couple years at National Ordnance, the first 1000 M1 carbines assembled by National Ordnance were with Winchester parts, Winchester barrels, and Winchester I cut stocks they purchased from Britain. The U.S. had provided the parts and barrels to Britain as support for the U.S. M1 carbines also provided to Britain. An additional 1000 surplus GI carbine barrels, all made by Marlin, were obtained from Numrich Gun Parts in West Hurley, NY. Mortonmoth Chemical Co. of Milwaukee, WI had acquired thousands of surplus GI carbine stocks. Penney purchased "a truckload" of them and refinished them.
Exerted from m1carbinesinc.com
My rifle (by stamps on receiver) is supposed to be post 1968 and this six-groove barrel on it just may be a Marlin. That would be just fine with me...

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by PhillipM on Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:10 pm

This could have been you. http://www.msgunowners.com/t9092-10-9-10-carbine-match-results-w-pictures

I can't find a post with the schedule for this years matches at Magnolia on msgunowners, but here is was was emailed to me. You don't have to be a member to shoot a match at Magnolia although you do need a notarized affidavit submitted one time regardless if you are a member or not. http://www.odcmp.com/Forms/affidavit.pdf

Come out and have fun!


March 19, 2011 Garand/Springfield/Carbine Match
April
April 9, 2011 Garand/Springfield/Carbine Match
April 23, 2011 M-1 Carbine Match
May
May 21, 2011 Garand/Springfield/Carbine Match
May 28, 2011 Vintage Bolt Action Rifle Match
June
June 11, 2011 Garand/Springfield/Carbine Match
July
July 16, 2011 M-1 Carbine Match
August
August 20, 2011 Garand/Springfield/Carbine Match
September
September 10, 2011 M-1 Carbine Match
September 24, 2011 Garand/Springfield/Carbine Match
October
October 15, 2011 Vintage Bolt Action Rifle Match
October 29, 2011 Garand/Springfield/Carbine Match
November
November 12, 2011 Garand/Springfield/Carbine Match

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Re: National Ordnance M1 carbine

Post by captain-03 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:13 pm

The OFFICIAL Match schedule has not yet been published. M1GarandFan put the above schedule together and turned it in to the Board.

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"For crying out loud, the Garand ain't a piece of fine china .. SMACK IT !!! Get yourself a rubber, plastic, wooden or leather hammer and smack the hell out of it. THAT is how they were put together when they were made."

"Then, Sir, we shall give them the bayonet" Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson

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